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Thumber
LNF Champion
Joined: 08 Nov 2007
Posts: 8285
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 Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| John Pytel wrote: | | Thumber wrote: | | John Pytel wrote: |
It's actually cool as it's different then a true up or downhill frold putt. A third option for design and arguably the only option when it is flat. |
I don't agree. Good pin placement on the green is a far better way to increase risk / reward.
You should have come out to VMP and tried them out. Those cloth baskets are very small and adding difficulty to them was novel, but not much fun (MY OPINION). |
I can't say introducing 2 difficulties on a green is better. I wasn't basing what I had to say about elevated baskets on VMP layout.
On a flat wide open hole, say like 17 at Ettyville, it works to create the effect of an elevated green on your approach shot and putt. Most cost efficient way to do that. Would I do that on 18 holes? Never. |
I don't like it on 17 at ettyville either. I hated it at Flat Mountain as well
If you want to increase the difficulty of the green on ettyville 17 you would get a better hole by carving a green into the screen of trees on the left. You then place a very large premium on an approach shot that gets you into position to putt. Very analogous to ettyville #10 green .
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John Pytel
Sultan of Swill
Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Posts: 3774
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Thumber wrote: | | John Pytel wrote: | | Thumber wrote: | | John Pytel wrote: |
It's actually cool as it's different then a true up or downhill frold putt. A third option for design and arguably the only option when it is flat. |
I don't agree. Good pin placement on the green is a far better way to increase risk / reward.
You should have come out to VMP and tried them out. Those cloth baskets are very small and adding difficulty to them was novel, but not much fun (MY OPINION). |
I can't say introducing 2 difficulties on a green is better. I wasn't basing what I had to say about elevated baskets on VMP layout.
On a flat wide open hole, say like 17 at Ettyville, it works to create the effect of an elevated green on your approach shot and putt. Most cost efficient way to do that. Would I do that on 18 holes? Never. |
I don't like it on 17 at ettyville either. I hated it at Flat Mountain as well
If you want to increase the difficulty of the green on ettyville 17 you would get a better hole by carving a green into the screen of trees on the left. You then place a very large premium on an approach shot that gets you into position to putt. Very analogous to ettyville #10 green . |
and I don't necessarily disagree with you but I know what is the "cheapest" way and that is why you see a hole or 2 on a tournament layout done that way. Forced lay up. Non standard putt.
Elevation is probably a increase in difficulty but don't assume it's all that. It's the effect of elevation that you get with a raised basket,which in turn is difficult. To a designer, who is trying to test all the shot in your bag, there may be more than simply difficulty involved. |
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Thumber
LNF Champion
Joined: 08 Nov 2007
Posts: 8285
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| Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| John Pytel wrote: | | Thumber wrote: | | John Pytel wrote: | | Thumber wrote: | | John Pytel wrote: |
It's actually cool as it's different then a true up or downhill frold putt. A third option for design and arguably the only option when it is flat. |
I don't agree. Good pin placement on the green is a far better way to increase risk / reward.
You should have come out to VMP and tried them out. Those cloth baskets are very small and adding difficulty to them was novel, but not much fun (MY OPINION). |
I can't say introducing 2 difficulties on a green is better. I wasn't basing what I had to say about elevated baskets on VMP layout.
On a flat wide open hole, say like 17 at Ettyville, it works to create the effect of an elevated green on your approach shot and putt. Most cost efficient way to do that. Would I do that on 18 holes? Never. |
I don't like it on 17 at ettyville either. I hated it at Flat Mountain as well
If you want to increase the difficulty of the green on ettyville 17 you would get a better hole by carving a green into the screen of trees on the left. You then place a very large premium on an approach shot that gets you into position to putt. Very analogous to ettyville #10 green . |
and I don't necessarily disagree with you but I know what is the "cheapest" way and that is why you see a hole or 2 on a tournament layout done that way. Forced lay up. Non standard putt.
Elevation is probably a increase in difficulty but don't assume it's all that. It's the effect of elevation that you get with a raised basket,which in turn is difficult. To a designer, who is trying to test all the shot in your bag, there may be more than simply difficulty involved. |
Again, i don't agree. From a design point of view it encourages lay ups. Lay ups do not lead to scoring spreads, which is what you should be looking to. #17 is 2 big shots to get near the green. Drop in 3s are very rare. Most 2nd shots I see end up between 40-60 feet from the basket. If the basket is elevated, very few players are going to run the putt. If at ground level, players will more aggressively run the basket, increasing the risk of a blow by and hard 4, maybe a 5. The elevated basket will see almost no 3 tries and lots of drop in 4's.
Elevated baskets, IMO, are a very poor facsimile of elevation. I don't really get why you would want to try to simulate elevation when there are so many other design tools that can be used to increase risk / reward.
The analogue in ball golf, which you referenced earlier, would be building a little mound in the center of the green and putting the cup in the mound. Any miss and you have a large roll away. No ball golf designer would do this.
Same thing is true when you use elevated baskets. Very easy to blow by, thus people layup and take their lumps. It discourages aggressive play, which will lead to lots of pars.
Now #5 green at ettyville is a good example of an elevated green. The difference is that you actually have a hill side that you can throw an approach shot in to.
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meh
Last edited by Thumber on Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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The Nicest of The Damned
Ace Race Champion
Joined: 20 Apr 2011
Posts: 346
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| Posted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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| andros wrote: | | Jefrey A. Brother wrote: |
What were the thoughts on the baskets on the picnic tables? Saw Old Man hit one from downtown. |
It forced my team to adopt a strategy that someone lays it up and someone goes for it.
Very risk/reward. |
Of course, my team's strategy was more layup, run it, or misc.
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Don't you miss the days when you used to be nostalgic? |
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LeppyR64
Disc Jockey
Joined: 15 Jul 2002
Posts: 736
Location: Arnprior, Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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I must admit, Steve was very good at laying up.
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Jason Lepack
Left-Handed Sandbagger
jlepack AT gmail DOT com |
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Adrian1657
Driver
Joined: 04 Jul 2011
Posts: 460
Location: Ottawa
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| Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:36 am Post subject: |
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With those baskets, nothing takes the wind out of your sails then a dead on putt that sailed thorgh the chains.
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Ice Bowl is the only good thing with February. |
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briggs
Disc Jockey
Joined: 31 Jul 2008
Posts: 593
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| Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Adrian1657 wrote: | | With those baskets, nothing takes the wind out of your sails then a dead on putt that sailed thorgh the chains. |
I feel you there man... |
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Chuck Shick
Plaid Jacket Champion
Joined: 05 Sep 2000
Posts: 1899
Location: Chelsea
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| Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:52 am Post subject: |
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| andros wrote: | | Jefrey A. Brother wrote: | | Not super huge. Are the dudes ice climbing the ice basket? Or carving it, I wonder. |
Carving I'd say, they appear to be using jackhammers. |
This seems incomplete. Shouldn't there be a ton ton wearing a bra or something?
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Cell phones make it easy to communicate with everybody except the people you're currently with.
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Jefrey A. Brother
King Jefrey
Joined: 05 Feb 2010
Posts: 10042
Location: First tee
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| Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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Speaking of tontons, did anyone catch the Lego Star Wars mini marathon last night on Teletoon? Funny stuff.
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Boyle says BOOM! |
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LeppyR64
Disc Jockey
Joined: 15 Jul 2002
Posts: 736
Location: Arnprior, Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Jefrey A. Brother wrote: | | Speaking of tontons, did anyone catch the Lego Star Wars mini marathon last night on Teletoon? Funny stuff. |
You had lots to watch last night eh?
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Jason Lepack
Left-Handed Sandbagger
jlepack AT gmail DOT com |
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